Curse

Ozric · Aug 18, 2006, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Lots of fine ideas in here. The thread hit the core of the matter when it spoke of how 4 pips just doesn't support the large pool of mana. The only way around that being to use some of your skill slots to maintain the pool, and then again another slot to protect that very maintenance from strippage. As for me, I've left the Energy Storage Elites on the table in favor of damage dealing ones in most pve and ab that I play simply because being stripped is just going to happen. I do bring an Attunement because, well, you just have to if you want to have any kind of longevity, and just try to stay away from the mesmers as long as I can.

Yes I've heard of Glyph of Energy, take it everywhere in pve land I go when I play Fire, which isn't often anymore. But I'm way past tired of having to use my Elite slot to maintain my primary attribute. Not to mention I hate having to add another second to my Meteor Showers, Meteor's, Rodgort's and all other exhaustion-causing/high energy spells to get the mileage out of the Glyph.

I'm just tired of having to make the whole party wait for my energy to regen after the fight because I'm having to wait on my energy pool to regen itself. The MM's complain because they're minions are dying, the warriors simply don't care and aggro the next group. Rangers are just like, 'WTF?'.

I think Ele's should have another pip or two of energy regen to help maintain that mana pool. Yes with the current Energy Storage spells/glyphs the way they are that would make it too good. So nerf or trash those. Give me the energy regen I need out of my armor to make my character viable and let me use something out of my secondary other than a single rez, stance, mantra, or arcane echo. You want this Ele to get more involved in organized pvp, let me deal sustained damage and get away with it, not just run a flag around and spam HP.

Cynn Evennia · Aug 18, 2006, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozric

I think Ele's should have another pip or two of energy regen to help maintain that mana pool [...] let me deal sustained damage and get away with it, not just run a flag around and spam HP.

The extra pip wont solve the problem as some people has posted here, but yes, we need to deal better damage.

Ensign · Aug 18, 2006, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xpl0iter

Ensign, how many hits were you suggesting for Meteor Shower? 4 or so if i recall?

Yes, 4...I don't think that fourth hit is nearly as valuable as the first, and I think the effect needs a longer duration (right now, the animation has a 12 second effect, but only a 6/7 second duration (doesn't hit until second 3, last hit is on second 9). Hence, change effect from meteors on seconds 3/6/9 to 1/4/7/10. Landing immediately is key, I feel - right now players can get out of the shower before the first damage tick without too much trouble.

The lower cast time is because I think that a 5 second cast time on anything with such a tiny AoE is absurd. Shorter cast times = better tactical usage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xpl0iter

Since my english is not fluent, could u kindly explain the very last paragraph of your post?

Short answer: 55 monks. I feel there are enough horrendously broken PvE builds that microbalancing 'fair' skills for PvE is pointless. By 'fair' skills, I mean skills that don't get their power from abusing enemy AI, and aren't effective only because of the holes in monster skillsets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

If you remove the casting time from glyphs entirely, would they still have an aftercast?

Nope. They'd be like stances, they'd flash on the second bar when you used them and be effective instantly. The idea is that elementalists are already the slowest profession in the game, and glyphs only serve to make them even slower. I think that without casting times, glyphs would instantly become a very strong 'metamagic' mechanic, giving the profession more versatility as they can suddenly cast all of their spells in different forms depending on the glyph used.

Without casting times, Glyph of Concentration and Glyph of Elemental Power instantly become playable. Glyph of Energy and Glyph of Lesser Energy similarly become much more attractive (Lesser Energy would still need a recharge buff though, IMO). The issue with those two glyphs has always been how they turn expensive 3 second cast time spells into cheap 5 second cast time spells, and 5 second cast times cannot be used tactically. Glyph of Renewal becomes attractive again (it was only really good with Domination mesmers, and Mantra of Recovery has largely replaced it). The only glyphs I think it breaks are Glyph of Sacrifice and Glyph of Essence - since they would make skills truly instant and likely break some things in the process. Spiking, for instance - Lightning Orb into an instant Lightning Hammer is probably a *bit* much. Those glyphs could retain a cast time for balance purposes, or be reworked to halve the cast time of the affected spell.

Anyway, I feel that glyphs without cast times would be a very strong mechanic with a lot of design space for the elementalist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

I like the idea of LS with a 2s recharge. That makes it the spammable shock arrow should have been. Maybe attach a secondary effect to shock arrow to make it more attractive? Or make it a LS clone with a .5sec cast time (to compensate for being a projectile).

Lightning Strike with a 2s recharge just makes too much sense to suggest otherwise, IMO. At 5s recharge, it's pushing a lot of comparable skills into 8s recharges and that really kills 'em. So you drop Strike down to 2s, making it the vanilla spammable (it's just a followup and boring pressure damage, it's not going to break anything), and shift other things down in reaction, like Arc Lightning. Shock Arrow simply loses the recharge entirely (I don't know why it has one TBH) and has its damage bumped, putting it on par with Flare/Stone Daggers/Ice Spear in that family.

Peace,
-CxE

Xpl0iter · Aug 18, 2006, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Thankyou for explanation Ensign

Neverthless, i do love the idea for glyphs.

Question, What do u suggest for energy storage attribute? Does adding more damagae (for example, 3-5% per ES level as Cynn suggested in above posts) along with energy increase by 3 points makes it overly powered?
Against Casters, Maybe, but against rangers and warriors along with the new dervish coming into scenes?

Ensign · Aug 18, 2006, 10:09 PM // 22:09

A couple of months I would have laughed at the idea of changing Energy Storage - but in light of the changes to Soul Reaping a couple of months ago, I can see a tweak happen.

I think there are a lot of things you can tweak about individual skills or even attributes, but damage is the one I am most lothe to touch. Anything that boosts damage in a general sense is going to cause all sorts of problems. Remember that the one thing that a.net is afraid of with elementalists is spike potential. I can't say I disagree with them - spike potential is a scary thing, and I don't feel it's good for the game when it's dominant. Hence I feel that solutions to buff up elementalist damage should focus on ways to increase their threat on the battlefield without significantly boosting their spike potential.

To address Cynn's suggestion: using a 16/13 Air/ES spec using that suggestion, Lightning Orb would deal 194 damage to a softie at 3% damage per attribute level, and 231 at 5% per level. I'll let those numbers speak for themselves.

As for a change to Energy Storage: while I feel that it is incredibly unlikely, if I could make a change to the attribute I would have it increase the rate of exhaustion recovery with additional points added. At 0 Energy Storage you fully recover from 10 exhaustion in 30 seconds - the change I would propose would have you fully recover from 10 exhaustion in 15 seconds at 16 Energy Storage - with linear scaling in between. Then I would use that as a basis to re-evaluate elementalist skills, putting exhaustion on skills a bit more aggressively in order to lower their energy cost.

The net result of such a change would be an elementalist who could cast the big spells more often (due to faster exhaustion recovery), while also making his energy better virtually (due to lower energy costs on exhaustion skills). Some desirable side effects of this are better class distinction (elementalists being the best at using exhaustion skills - right now, due to funky energy elite issues, they're actually the worst), and lowered dependency on energy elites (since you're getting virtual emanagement through exhaustion skills that you are much better set up to take advantage of.)

Peace,
-CxE

exiled mat · Aug 18, 2006, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by LiamR

The dervish can easily be stopped by a water ele. A whole pve mob can be stoppd. Watch them go 66% slower for 10+ seconds.. then cast another spell and keep watching. The only counter to this is hex removal [Which ive never seen in pve] or shadow stepping [which cannot be done with a dervish]. Even in pvp, a monk normally only carries one hex removal, if any.

You've never played against a dervish/monk?

Dervish uses 2 of his "enchantments of doom" so you take XX damage or so.
At this point you hex him with your snare waterspells.

Dervish is going slower but as he realises he's been hit with those hexes he promply uses Complimentation of purity. Hereby he loses his 2 enchantment which trigger: 1 the secondairy effect 2 his healing/energy management primairy attribute 3 a dual hex+condition removal.
So after that he's just going to bash you even harder than normal because of his secondairy enchantment effects..........

Conclusion: You can't snare a dervish effectifly with a water elementalist at the moment.

angshuman · Aug 18, 2006, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

*snip* ... getting virtual emanagement through exhaustion skills... *snip*

It's unfortunate that this concept hasn't been utilized more extensively in the class's skillset. Obsidian Flame, Shock and Chain Lightning come to mind, but apart from these, exhaustion seems to be tacked on to arbitrary spells like the 25-e 60-s MS.

IMO one of the beauties of Exhaustion on high-damage skills is that it not only provides this virtual emanagement, but also allows for more aggressive recharge times (e.g., Obs Flame). In theory, this gives an elementalist the choice to either play conservatively to maintain a stable energy pool, or go all-out on a completely front-loaded assault dishing out substantial DPS over a short period of time, but crippling themselves in the process. In practice, this simply doesn't work (at least not with Obs Flame, echoed or otherwise) since a 7-sec cycle is laughable if you are trying to get any DPS out of the skill, although you *will* cripple yourself trying.

The exhaustion mechanic is interesting, and it seems to have a nice synergy with the entire notion of Energy Storage. I think it needs to be utilized a bit more, with more ways to both create and remove it.

Cynn Evennia · Aug 19, 2006, 12:06 PM // 12:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

To address Cynn's suggestion: using a 16/13 Air/ES spec using that suggestion, Lightning Orb would deal 194 damage to a softie at 3% damage per attribute level, and 231 at 5% per level. I'll let those numbers speak for themselves.

Does that mean "i agree" or a "i disagree" ? Im too fond of my idea (extra damage and extra energy back) that i dont see your real opinion behind the lines

IMO the 3% extra damage is nice

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Conclusion: You can't snare a dervish effectifly with a water elementalist at the moment

Not so true. Just dont let dervishes abuse Contemplation of Purity (like making it have a 50% failure when divine favor is under 4). And BTW, a mesmer can disarm a dervish.

Alleji · Aug 19, 2006, 12:28 PM // 12:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynn Evennia

Does that mean "i agree" or a "i disagree" ? Im too fond of my idea (extra damage and extra energy back) that i dont see your real opinion behind the lines

IMO the 3% extra damage is nice

A 231-instadamage skill (i.e. orb, hammer, ob flame) is going to turn PvP into this:

E/x
E/x
E/x
E/x
A/Rt (for hunting down enemy's shelter)
Rt/x (for spamming shelter)
Mo/Me
Mo/Me

Cynn Evennia · Aug 19, 2006, 01:39 PM // 13:39

Mhh... whatever, a little more damage would help.

And yes, i agree insta-cast and insta-recharge on glyphs would be a nice improvement

Rieselle · Aug 19, 2006, 05:18 PM // 17:18

I've posted this elsewhere, but ES can become useful if we only had some energy management skills that are based off Max Energy.

(eg. Signet: regain 30% of max energy)

As for glyphs, I think quicker casting times are a fine idea. However, I dont see why Glyphs all need to have the same casting times.

Why not have short casting times for some Glyphs that need it, and long casting times for theoretical future high-powered glyphs, etc. (and a higher casting time like 3/4s for Glyph of Sacrifice)

Symbol · Aug 19, 2006, 08:23 PM // 20:23

A 231 damage orb would be ridiculous. Let's keep suggestions reasonable.

Ira Blinks · Aug 19, 2006, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

A 231 damage orb would be ridiculous. Let's keep suggestions reasonable.

ANet has the same problem as you do. You both look at the number an say zomg thats overpowered... But this is against 60 armor target, for the two seconds cast time, 7 seconds total interval and a good chance to miss. Does it still look ridicilous for you?
I say this is really what ele should be - you either shut it down or die quick and painfull.

Align · Aug 19, 2006, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

Does it still look ridicilous for you?

YES.
2-3 eles = instant death to anything ever.

I pwnd U · Aug 19, 2006, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Instant death to anything IF they can hit it fast enough before a monk can heal it.

Symbol · Aug 19, 2006, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ira Blinks

ANet has the same problem as you do. You both look at the number an say zomg thats overpowered... But this is against 60 armor target, for the two seconds cast time, 7 seconds total interval and a good chance to miss. Does it still look ridicilous for you?
I say this is really what ele should be - you either shut it down or die quick and painfull.

Yes, it is idiotically overpowered. It's a ranged, non-elite spell that does more damage than an eviscerate on a 5sec recharge. That's insane.
I should certainly hope that A.net has more common sense than to make changes like these.

Ira Blinks · Aug 19, 2006, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Yes, it is idiotically overpowered. It's a ranged, non-elite spell that does more damage than an eviscerate on a 5sec recharge. That's insane.
I should certainly hope that A.net has more common sense than to make changes like these.

who said evicerate supposed to deal more damage than any ele spell anyway? I've read things that say exactly opposite.

The truth itself · Aug 19, 2006, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by I pwnd U

Instant death to anything IF they can hit it fast enough before a monk can heal it.

They can, trust me.

Imagine an 6 ele spike, omfg.

231*6?
1386

I laugh @ trying to infuse that much damage.

Symbol · Aug 20, 2006, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Quote:

who said evicerate supposed to deal more damage than any ele spell anyway? I've read things that say exactly opposite.

O_o

The _point_ is that eviscerate is already in the running for best skill in the game. Now you want to introduce a non-elite lightning orb that essentially beats it (and not by a small margin) in damage, recharge, and range and somehow that's balanced?

Phades · Aug 20, 2006, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Maelstrom - this is from back when it had a four second cast time. I think the two second cast time was a stronger change, but the skill is still too expensive for the effect. I'd suggest dropping it to 15 energy (keeping exhaustion), and perhaps shaving a little bit off the recharge as well.

Gah, i cant help but split hairs here, but even with a shorter recharge the only real benefit would be to create the possibility for more than one malestorm effect from a single caster at the same time. Otherwise you are merely creating more exhaustion with no real effect. Even in the time it takes to follow up with a mind freeze or have a existing water based snare, the AOE on malestorm is so pitiful that the target can walk out of it before 1 wave can hit due to the drop from the sky mechanic. You can agrue that it simulates warrior style shutdown by forcing a negligable amount of kiting, but really it would be better to just expand the aoe at least 1 level so that at a minimum 1 hit is assured.

The sad part with this skill is that it requires a k/d skill from another source to guarentee that the skill hits center target, which allows for a greater chance for full skill effect. Hpyothetically speaking, any k/d skill landing as the malestorm drops down from the sky when combined with a 90% snare will guarentee the full duration effect on the target. Though actually pulling that off in a realistic 8v8 setting is kinda absurd. It is more in the realm of possibility in a 4v4 setting, but the target will likely be dead before the malestorm effect finishes anyway. This is how bad that skill is, which is partially due to the terrible aoe size.

Im not really against the energy cost reduction either, but it only just makes it more managable for mesmers despite the exhaustion. Personally id rather see the eliete attunment tweaked further to discourage that kind cross class abuse of energy management and possibly removing the normal attunments. Then adjust the quantity of reduction through the energy storage attribute, creating the desired target energy cost. Though this is still only mimicing what expertise does without any skill slots unfortunatly.

I do agree though that the cast time reduction assisted the targeting of the spell dramatically.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Landing immediately is key, I feel - right now players can get out of the shower before the first damage tick without too much trouble.

It also suffers from the fall from the sky mechanic, which is another limiting factor when discussing player movement. By default, any kind of run speed boost will render it useless, but that would be a similar argument towards overal AOE size that has been discussed before.

Furthermore it would blur the distinction in cost vs effect between meteor shower and the earthquake clones.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The lower cast time is because I think that a 5 second cast time on anything with such a tiny AoE is absurd. Shorter cast times = better tactical usage.

Considering most skills with cast times above 2s never get used if there is a chance for interuption, i would argue that anything over 2-3s is unreasonable for anything other than resurection and some spirit creation effects. This is also assuming the skills were meant to be used in places of conflict instead of away from gaining unwanted attention.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Nope. They'd be like stances, they'd flash on the second bar when you used them and be effective instantly.

Something along this line of thought i believe has been suggested before. Personally i think this is one of the better ideas to try and salvage the glyphs in general and help create better parities to other longer lasting skills. Though like other "skills" that tune performance, i would hope they would have multiple triggers per use of the skill. Hell, even signet of strength (among others) are one use up front, but trigger more than once.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

As for a change to Energy Storage: while I feel that it is incredibly unlikely, if I could make a change to the attribute I would have it increase the rate of exhaustion recovery with additional points added. At 0 Energy Storage you fully recover from 10 exhaustion in 30 seconds - the change I would propose would have you fully recover from 10 exhaustion in 15 seconds at 16 Energy Storage - with linear scaling in between. Then I would use that as a basis to re-evaluate elementalist skills, putting exhaustion on skills a bit more aggressively in order to lower their energy cost.

The theory is sound in general, but due to the exhaustion mechanic there are many skills that can be gauged more by the exhaustion cost than the actual energy cost. Also, by using skills that return energy after casting like attunements or shorten the cost up front like glyphs it would only enhance this situation. Personally i had in mind something like a buyback of exhaustion following exhaustion use tied to energy storage, similar to the way attunements behave. This would allow skills like obsidian flame be used more aggresivly and have the exhaustion cap more closely follow the up front energy cost instead of only playing a waiting game like every other class and having lower up front energy costs making it easier for other professions to abuse.

Another idea would be to have energy storage to override the exhaustion cap when direct energy gain occurs. For example the elementalist has a total enegy pool of 70, but has 30 existing exhaustion and 40 available energy. Then the elementalist uses second wind to gain energy and extinguish the existing exhastion. Other methods could include the buyback mechanic for attunements, mesmer options, and so on. Currently this kind of mechanic already exists post death if a character has existing exhaustion upon death and uses a exhaustion causing skill shortly following resurection, but i still think thats a bug ANET has elected to avoid squashing at this time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynn Evennia

Not so true. Just dont let dervishes abuse Contemplation of Purity (like making it have a 50% failure when divine favor is under 4). And BTW, a mesmer can disarm a dervish.

Actually it is true and the dervish doesnt even need CoP to do it versus elementalist based snares. Wiping out 1-3 hexes per casting of 1 skill while also healing and gaining energy at the same time for 5e is a no brainer should CoP become disabled. It had a 4s recharge as well if i recall correctly, making it silly to even try even a full bar of water hexes against 1 dervish, never mind multiple dervishes.

It was also excessivly difficult to stop a dervish with a mesmer. Monks were easier to handle than dervishes were durring the pvp event as a mesmer.